Topics: Gambling reform, news bargaining incentive, rental affordability, Matt Keogh failings, Sydney Swans scandal, social media ban failure, ABC Four Corners
Andrew Clennell: Well joining me live now, the Shadow Communications Minister, Sarah Henderson. Thanks for your time, Sarah Henderson. I just wanted to ask first about this gambling advertising legislation passed through the parliament with your assistance. Now you were involved in the negotiations with the government but ultimately the end result led to five Coalition MPs crossing the floor. What did you think of the decisions by Andrew Wallace, Paul Scarr, Alex Antic, Andrew McLachlan, and Pat Conaghan to cross the floor here?
Senator Henderson: Well, Andrew, good morning. Firstly, we were very pleased to fix Labor’s deficient bill which had a whole lot of very bad things about it, including not addressing the protection for children and predatory inducements. So we drove a whole lot of amendments to that bill, and of course, it was passed during the week. And again, we saw the minister for communications not capable of fixing basic things that were wrong with their gambling reforms. But to answer your question in relation to those who crossed the floor from the Coalition, we have a very healthy democracy in our party, where backbenchers can express their freedom and their individual conscience and cross the floor. I did it last year. It’s an important part of the principles of our party. In contrast to the communist, command-and-control of the Labor Party because if you cross the floor as a member of the Labor Party, you get expelled, and that’s why we see so much silence from those opposite in the chamber.
Andrew Clennell: It’s not a great vote of confidence to the Coalition’s stance on this legislation, though, is it? With this many MPs crossing the floor?
Senator Henderson: Look, I don’t agree with that. There is a very wide range of different views about the gambling reforms. We worked very hard to get the balance right. The Senate inquiry that we helped to support highlighted the many deficiencies with the bill, and of course, big initiatives like the AdStop register, the one stop shop so that every Australian can go to the register and opt out of all wagering ads online. Very significant reform. Other big reforms like predatory inducements to stop the gambling companies targeting those at high risk of gambling harm, and also the banning of illegal wagering ads online again, something that the Labor Party did not address. So, some very significant initiatives in our bill. Some, I recognise, wanted to go further. And that is why, Andrew, we have pushed the government to also agree to a three-year statutory review. This bill and these laws will be under review in three years’ time because we think that being accountable and transparent in relation to these laws is very important.
Andrew Clennell: Any of these five who crossed the floor, did they come to you and say, “Look, can you fight for this or can you fight for that? Did they talk to you or the leader about their concerns, or was it just in the party room in the parliament, really, that they expressed their concern?
Senator Henderson: Look, Andrew, I have had very extensive conversations with all of my colleagues. They’ve engaged very meaningfully. We took forward a package of amendments. I mean, it was absolutely pathetic that the minister, Anika Wells, tried to take credit for these initiatives. Everyone in the parliament and, frankly, across the country knew that the prime minister and the communications minister were dragged kicking and screaming to the table because their bill was so deficient. But, as I say, we have a very healthy democracy in our party room. It’s a great hallmark of the Liberal and Nationals parties, and one that we hold very dear to our heart. And I think it helps us to make better laws and of course, to respect the views of all people. As I say, in the Labor Party, you cross the floor, you get chopped off at the knees, and you know that is why when things go wrong, so many people in Labor just stay silent.
Andrew Clennell: Tim Costello, the anti-gambling advocate, has said that allowing three gambling ads an hour is like allowing three cigarette ads an hour for children. What do you say to that?
Senator Henderson: Well, we worked very hard to try and get the balance right, and that’s not accurate because there are no gambling ads allowed during children’s television or programs targeted to children. There are also no gambling ads allowed during live sport, and there’s also the 15-minute blackout in the lead-up to live sport. Now we drove that amendment because we felt that that was important. But we also respect the fact that this is a very significant industry, and the vast majority of Australians gamble responsibly. So we’re really focused, Andrew, on targeting the sorts of amendments that addressed gambling harm, gambling addiction, and some of the really insidious tactics of the gambling companies.
Andrew Clennell: How much of it is about keeping traditional media? And I guess I put News 24 in here too, keeping it afloat when it’s under threat, really, from declining revenue, social media, and the like?
Senator Henderson: Look, keeping free TV strong in our country is critically important, and you are right. So much of the advertising dollars are being drained onto the digital platforms, and frankly, they are not doing a very good job in many respects. As I say, they were running illegal gambling ads, so we’ve now passed very strong laws making it clear that if you want to run a gambling ad in this country, you must check to make sure that it is only from a licensed wagering provider. And of course, we’ve seen the shocking spate of scam advertisements on digital platforms. But we want to keep free TV strong in our country. We want to ensure that Australian journalism is sustainable, and that is also, of course, a very important part of our news media bargaining incentive scheme that was passed in the parliament this week as well.
Andrew Clennell: You’ve also struck a deal on the news bargaining code. What were the sticking points here and what was the final conclusion? [Brief audio issue] Are you ok?
Senator Henderson: Yes, the audio just faded, that’s ok. Well, the news media bargaining incentive, Andrew, is all about ensuring that Australian journalism and Australian newsrooms remain strong. And as I said, of course, so much of the advertising dollar is being drained onto the digital platforms, the multinational tech giants. That is not good for our democracy. So we were very pleased to work hard to deliver more money to Australian media and to Australian newsrooms with an increase in the charge that will apply to not just Google and Meta, but also Microsoft’s LinkedIn and TikTok. So this will drive substantial revenues to Australian newsrooms and Australian media, and we think that’s a very good thing.
Andrew Clennell: I wanted to ask now about this area of attack the opposition’s hitting the government with around rent, and there’s talk of increases in rents between 15 and 30 per cent because of the government’s tax changes. Now the government thinks these predictions are garbage. What’s your reaction to that?
Senator Henderson: Well, they tried to run that line. Of course, both Ray White, one of the largest real estate companies in Australia, and also the NAB came out and said that they feared that rents would rise by 30 per cent because so much additional costs are now imposed on landlords, because of the changes to capital gains tax and also negative gearing. And Andrew, I just want to remind you – our plan will fix that [showing the Plan] because we are going to get rid of all of those toxic taxes under Angus Taylor’s leadership. But this is a shemozzle. We have seen confidence in the housing market completely diving. And of course, we know the Budget is going to deliver fewer houses. But this is a disaster, and this is another indication of what a disastrous Budget Labor handed down in May.
Andrew Clennell: But NAB, the National Australia Bank, said that wasn’t a prediction. That was sort of saying, oh well, this is how much less negative gearing money people will get, so they might raise their rents up to 30 per cent. Do you concede that? Or new investors might?
Senator Henderson: What the government tried to say, Andrew, was that this is not a forecast.
Andrew Clennell: Well it’s not.
Senator Henderson: And the NAB and also Ray White said – we stand by these figures. This is our modelling, and this is a disaster for rental affordability in this country. We know that we have a dramatic shortage of houses in this country. Of course, driven by mass migration in this country, Labor’s reckless mismanagement of our migration program. The whole economy, Andrew, is going off a cliff. But for Australians and those renters who are facing these dramatically increased rents, it is just a complete disaster. So all I can say is, here’s the plan {showing the Plan]. Please get rid of this shocking government.
Andrew Clennell: Well, I mean, yeah more on that with Josh Burns later, but where are you getting the money for the plan, is one big question. I mean, you’ve been having a go at the government fair enough on a trillion dollars debt this week and God only knows Jim Chalmers used to hit you guys with that every single day. But you know, you’re winding back the tax, you got spending promises including your income tax cuts, how does it all get paid for?
Senator Henderson: Well, Andrew, we’ll make more announcements in due course but we have made it very clear that we have to put a constraint on the government’s waste and also on government spending. And of course, the $1 trillion of debt will mean nearly $30 billion of interest is payable every single year, which will, of course, be one of the biggest bills that the government will now have to pay. They’ve squandered $400 billion in windfall revenue. Honestly, this economy is going off the cliff under Labor and you know, $1 trillion of debt says it all.
Andrew Clennell: Alright, let’s talk about Matt Keogh now. Now, has Richard Marles, the Deputy Prime Minister, Defence Minister, got a problem when he’s got Matt Keough underperforming in veterans and Luke Gosling on a common assault charge as an envoy on defence?
Senator Henderson: Well, he does, but Richard Marles also has plenty of other problems himself. He’s not doing a very good job as the defence minister, including selling off our military history. So, for anyone wanting to come to Queenscliff tomorrow for our Senate inquiry to stop the Commonwealth selling off Queenscliff Fort, please come along. But look, honestly, this Matt Keogh minister, he has to go. What he has done in the way he has treated veterans who made so much sacrifice to our country, fighting for our country, and that compact when they do so, is that we as Australians look after them. And the $5,000 allied health cap is a disaster. But it’s not just that – that’s got to be fixed, clearly the minister’s got to go – but the way he spoke to these veterans when he did meet with them, Andrew, didn’t shake their hand, crossed his arms, was arrogant and offhand. Clearly, he had to be forced to meet with those veterans. I mean, the prime minister should do the right thing, not only stand him down or move him out of the portfolio because he doesn’t seem to have the right character to do this job which requires a lot of compassion. But for Luke Gosling also sitting in that job, that’s a complete joke. He’s facing assault charges, and he also needs to be stood down as well.
Andrew Clennell: I should add too, I said Dimity Clancey earlier in the program, Dimity Paul is the official with David Epstein from the Prime Minister’s office who met those veterans. Now I also read during the week that Matt Keogh’s not too happy. He still, as he sees it, is stuck in veterans’ affairs. It was an unsourced quote. What do you think if that is the sentiment of the minister?
Senator Henderson: Well, I don’t think he’s up to being a minister at all. I think he needs to go back to the backbench. He’s clearly very arrogant. He clearly thinks he’s got a lot to offer the Albanese Labor Government, but he’s causing untold damage. I mean, look at the way he treated the parents of the former Victoria Cross recipient Cameron Baird. They just needed a few thousand dollars to go around the country and talk about their son, who was of course, killed in action. And the fact that he stripped that money from Mr and Mrs Baird is completely and utterly shocking. It shows he does not have the character to be the Veterans Affairs Minister. He should not be doing this job, and the Prime Minister needs to move him on.
Andrew Clennell: Alright, now, I wanted to ask about the biggest news story in Australia this week, the Sydney Swans alleged sexual assault scandal. Is there any role for government here in addressing this scandal or the treatment of women at the moment? I know domestic violence will be up in national cabinet on Wednesday. Chris Minns, the New South Wales premier, is calling an urgent roundtable on teen consent. Is that a good move and is there anything the federal government should be doing in in reacting to the scandal, in your view?
Senator Henderson: Well, this is a scandal. These allegations are shocking, and I feel so much for the three women involved. The Sydney Swans has been plunged into a crisis. I can’t even understand why professional footballers were out drinking and there’s also allegations of drug taking. It sounds like a terrible culture at that football club that that’s even permitted. But more broadly, I think government does have a very important role in protecting women and children, and in making sure that we have appropriate laws. So the calling of national cabinet, I welcome that, but of course that also goes to ensuring that young people are safe online. They’re safe in the street. They’re safe in their homes. And so I think the government can do and should do much more. And today, you would have seen, Andrew, that Jess Wilson, hopefully, our next premier in Victoria has announced changes to the Court of Appeal. There is enormous dissatisfaction about the way that too many young people in Victoria are getting away, in this crime crisis, with shocking crimes. The bail laws are just not good enough. The sentences are too lenient, and so governments, both Commonwealth but also at a state and territory level, can play and must play a very important role.
Andrew Clennell: Now there was a completely unverified report, and I wanted to stress this in the Herald Sun that the Swans players referenced the Prime Minister’s podcast and the description of melons during this engagement with these women in Melbourne. Now the Prime Minister on Thursday said he should never have taken part in that Bush Deep podcast. It was a mea culpa of sorts. What’s your reaction to his mea culpa?
Senator Henderson: Andrew, it is absolutely not good enough. Back on the 6th of July, when I watched that Bush Deep podcast tape and discovered what he said about the Japanese prime minister, I was appalled. I called for him to apologise. The high-level one-line apology he gave, referencing his disgusting comments about Kylie Minogue, was just completely inadequate. And every single day, I will be saying this prime minister must apologise, apologise for doing the wrong thing. These crude and smutty remarks that he made in relation to the melons, of course, have now resonated around the country. I’m not going to comment on those unverified reports, but clearly that report has been made. That is very concerning because this is our prime minister, he sets the standard in this country. He made a very bad judgement call in not only going on the podcast but in the way he answered those questions. It was absolutely shocking, Andrew. He just needs to man up and he needs to apologise to the Japanese prime minister because he has caused very significant offence and damaged the relationship between Australia and Japan.
Andrew Clennell: Now it’s been a terrible week on the sexual assault news front. We’ve seen a couple of alleged teen gang rapes in Sydney, including by boys from Scots College, there’s a lot of conjecture and reporting that social media content is causing teen boys to behave worse. The so-called manosphere, the social media ban of the government hasn’t worked. Where’s legislation on that up to in the Senate? Because I know Anika Wells is trying to move some amendments to make it a bit tougher, and I think you’ve got a Senate Select Committee going on that. So, can you update us on all that? And do you think social media has had a role to play in making things worse for young women?
Senator Henderson: Andrew, I do. The social media ban is not working. The minister has failed, frankly, in a number of different respects, including, of course, her travel rorts, this mismanagement of the Triple Zero scandal. But the broken social media ban is particularly bad because the minister is not taking any other appropriate action urgently to make things safer online for all Australians, including young Australians. So we have amendments to the Online Safety Act before the Parliament. The minister tried to urge us to rush those through, and of course, we’ve now interrogated those amendments. Witnesses right across the board – including grieving parents who lost their children as a result of being abused online or cyber abuse online, just absolutely tragic – they are all calling for more urgent action, and that’s what we are concerned about. I mean, the algorithm which is driving such addiction, these platforms are designed to make kids addicted, and of course, once you go down a particular deep hole, you keep going down that hole because the algorithm drives it. So, this minister and this government must do much more to keep young people safe online, particularly women and girls, and that includes tackling the algorithm. But also giving parents safety tools. At the moment, would you believe if you are a corporation or a government department, you can access all these high-level safety tools on the devices? But parents cannot do that, and that, frankly, is not good enough and needs to also change urgently.
Andrew Clennell: Excuse my ignorance, what sort of tools?
Senator Henderson: Well, they’re tools that sit in the operating systems of Apple and Microsoft’s platforms, and they basically stop the harm getting to the phone. And so, if you have a device, if you’re in a large corporation and there’s an enterprise agreement between that corporation and Apple, for instance, you can access very sophisticated safety tools which stop pornography and other dangerous material reaching your phone. Parents don’t have access to that same level of protection, and that is just not good enough. And so, I’ve been calling for that for quite a long time ever since I stepped back in the portfolio, and it’s just another reminder, Andrew, that this government is not doing enough and not acting with appropriate urgency in relation to online safety.
Andrew Clennell: You talked about the algorithm. Is there something you can do with the legislation on the algorithm? Is that what you’re suggesting? Do you have a proposal?
Senator Henderson: Well, one of the calls that we heard some very compelling evidence during our Senate inquiry was to make the algorithm public, to publish the algorithm, because these algorithms, and they’re very sophisticated, of course, are driving harm. And we’ve seen that, of course, with multiple court cases in the United States, where Meta, particularly Facebook and also Instagram, have been found responsible for damaging children’s mental health and the like, and faced very significant damages payouts as a result. So we think much more action needs to occur with the dreaded algorithm, including publishing it. So, X Corp essentially they publish their algorithm but Meta does not. This is driving harm.
Andrew Clennell: Where would an algorithm be published and what would that tell us, and how would that prevent anything?
Senator Henderson: So, what it does, it shows how the choices work. So when you are watching content online, the algorithm drives, and there’s other things, of course, too. But Twitter has made all of this public. How the algorithm works. So there’s certain rules that apply when you’re actually online, and of course we can’t see. There’s no transparency in relation to the algorithm from Meta and other platforms, and of course, many parents just want to turn the algorithm off. They want Facebook the way it used to be, where they could just see content from their friends. So I think a lot of hard work needs to be done in that respect to give young people and all Australians greater choice as to what they see online.
Andrew Clennell: Even the New South Wales premier, Chris Minns, made comments this week the ban hasn’t worked. What’s your reaction to that?
Senator Henderson: Well, he’s speaking the truth. It hasn’t worked. There’s enormous circumvention rates. I’m not saying that the digital platforms should not be doing more. I think they are doing more, and they’re also running a campaign to try and basically diminish the legitimacy of the social media ban. But it’s giving parents a false sense of security. They think everything’s fine, my children are protected because they can’t go on social media. But there is such a high circumvention rate. Kids are using VPNs, age assurance is not working, and so, as I say, this minister and this government must do much more and very urgently to tackle these online harms.
Andrew Clennell: Now, just finally, the ABC has taken down stories involving this former Four Corners reporter and former bikie, Mahmood Fazal. You’ve called for an independent inquiry into his hiring by the ABC. What are you seeking to achieve there? Who do you want to hold the inquiry? What are you looking for?
Senator Henderson: Well, Andrew, this is one of the biggest scandals I think we’ve seen at the ABC. The ABC has hired a former ex-bikie. He was a member of a violent criminal organisation. Apparently, he turned over a new leaf but he’s now brought the ABC into disrepute with fake news. He’s used fake sources. He is not a trained journalist. I mean, this is the ABC’s most preeminent current affairs program. Most journalists would walk over hot coals to get a job on Four Corners, and it has been brought into disrepute. And for $1.28 billion that Australians pay the ABC every single year, Australians deserve transparency and accountability. What went wrong? How was this person hired? Why didn’t the ABC act when very serious allegations were first made about this person, Mahmood Fazal, back in 2024? It is a real scandal, and Australians deserve much better than this.
Andrew Clennell: Sarah Henderson, thanks so much for your time.
Senator Henderson: Thanks, Andrew.