Topics: Indexation of welfare payments, international student caps, school funding dispute, census debacle, Blayney goldmine
Andrew Clennell: Joining me live is the shadow education minister, Sarah Henderson, thanks for your time. Sarah Henderson, I want to talk to you about these student caps on universities and colleges. But first, let me ask you about that news from the Amanda Rishworth interview, the increase in the dole and single parent payment and pensions and rent assistance and the like. What’s your reaction to that in terms of its effect on inflation and about the increases generally?
Senator Henderson: Well, Andrew, good morning, and great to join you. Well, first of all, I would say this is very much business as usual. Indexation, of course, applies twice a year to all welfare payments, that happened under our government. But what is not business as usual is the shocking cost of living that so many Australians are suffering, including, of course, pensioners. The cost of food, the cost of electricity and gas is skyrocketing, and that is such a major issue for every household. In my portfolio, 3 million Australians have so far suffered a 16 per cent increase in student debt, which is just appalling. And of course, that’s only because of Labor’s very high inflation.
Andrew Clennell: All right. Well, let’s talk about the announcement now, education minister Jason Clare made during the week of the numbers around his system of international student caps for the universities. The cap has been put on at 270,000 with Group of Eight universities to see their international student intake drop by 27 per cent but regional universities to have theirs increased by 78 per cent. After a few days to digest it, does the opposition support this proposal?
Senator Henderson: Well, Andrew, first of all, let me say that international student caps are only necessary because of Labor’s immigration mess. We’ve seen record immigration coming into this country, and the last data shows that something like 767,000 student visas were issued in the last 12 months. So this is absolutely out of control, a mess of Labor’s own making, and frankly, what we’ve seen with the student cap introduced or announced by the government is more smoke and mirrors. So I agree with you on the figures that you’ve just cited, but what the government doesn’t say is the Group of Eight universities received a 34 per cent increase in their student visas this year, and the regional unis were hit by a 37 per cent decline. So the numbers that have been announced basically take the big end of town back to where they were last year, while the regional unis are still suffering. And we’ve seen what’s happened under Ministerial Direction 107 – the government caused enormous economic harm to the regional and smaller unis, as well as the private education providers, and I can’t see that changing, because their numbers are still going backwards dramatically.
Andrew Clennell: So do you support this proposal though?
Senator Henderson: We are still looking at the bill. There’s a lot about the bill that we don’t know. We do support student caps, so we’ve made it very clear that we are concerned about excessive numbers of foreign students in the big cities, and particularly in Sydney and Melbourne. For instance, at the University of Sydney, they’re now up more than 50 per cent of foreign students at that university. You know, tens of thousands of students, and that, of course, is having a massive impact on housing, particularly in Sydney and Melbourne. So we do support student caps, where the issue is. We do not support what the government has done to the regional and smaller unis. I mean, Jason Clare, Andrew, said this was a big win for the regions. We’ve just learned in the last 48 hours that Federation Uni in Ballarat has had their numbers halved. So there’s so much about this bill we don’t know. And that’s why we are wanting to see – and I will confirm this this morning – we are wanting to see another public hearing, another Senate inquiry public hearing, hopefully this week, so that we can actually learn what is going on. Because, of course, the government announced these caps one day after the last public hearing, so we were completely in the dark. And that is another transparency fail from Labor.
Andrew Clennell: The Greens, as I understand it, want a new inquiry, even another Senate inquiry, and this kicked off, not come in next year. What do you think, is there a possibility you’d support that in the Senate? Or is it a better just to get a cap in place, even if you don’t agree with it 100 per cent.
Senator Henderson: Well, what we are saying is we want to see another public hearing, because the minister’s department came along to that hearing with no data, no information, basically saying `There’s nothing to see here’. I even asked about whether they had the appropriate systems to implement a student cap. And the day after the public hearing, we were really deceived by the minister’s officials in the Senate inquiry, they announced that they will need to upgrade their IT system. So we want to know what’s going on. The minister has even – I mean, he’s great with the talk; he says, you know, international students don’t just make money, they also make friends. Well, this minister is causing chaos in his portfolio. He is making no friends, and frankly, we are appalled by the treatment of regional unis, and smaller universities, and also the private providers who do an amazing job supporting international students. So that’s why we want to see another public hearing to find out how the bill will operate in practice.
Andrew Clennell: You said during the week you were concerned about Group of Eight threats to cut the number of domestic students because of this cap. And you said, if our top universities are going to reduce domestic students to protect their rivers of gold – billions of dollars in foreign student fees – the Coalition will consider further measures to put Australian students first. What sort of measures are you talking about?
Senator Henderson: Well, what I’m saying simply is that Australian public universities, funded by the taxpayer, have a fundamental obligation to educate Australian students. That is their job, and they receive many billions of dollars from the taxpayer to do that job. And I think in some cases, they have lost sight of that mission. And I am concerned that the universities are not focusing enough on teaching excellence, on student engagement. I mean, one third of Australian university students are saying they have a very poor learning experience, Andrew, and there’s not enough face-to-face learning, there’s not enough engagement on campus, and too many young Australians are falling through the cracks. We don’t think that’s good enough, and we do think that universities have got to focus on the fundamentals, and if they don’t, we will consider further measures.
Andrew Clennell: Such as?
Senator Henderson: Well, I’m not going to go into that now, but this is firing a warning shot over the bow of the big universities. Please focus on your fundamental mission. From the data that we have seen, it looks like undergraduate students, for instance, at the University of Sydney, there is not as many now as there were 25 years ago, and yet we’ve seen more than a tenfold increase in foreign students. So they are rivers of gold. They are making the universities billions of dollars. But of course, we don’t want Australian students to pay the price for that. So I say to the big end of town and to the government, `Please focus on looking after Australian students’. I mean, I am hearing so many stories, Andrew, where Australian students are sitting in lecture theatres – 75 per cent of the students are foreign – they’re divided in terms of their work, they can’t work together. Even foreign students are using Google Translate – they’re holding their phone up to a lecturer to understand what’s going on. And so if foreign students can’t speak English, I mean, that affects everyone’s learning.
Andrew Clennell: How widespread, I have heard this anecdotally too, about a lack of English. How widespread do you think it is? How many students are in our universities who cannot speak good English? In your view?
Senator Henderson: I think it is very widespread. So there was the story a few weeks ago about a young first year commerce student at Melbourne uni. He’s just left commerce because his entire tutorial was basically being spoken in Mandarin, including from the tutor – the occasional bit of English here and there – but every other student in his class was a foreign student. They were all speaking in Mandarin, and he was just in despair he couldn’t learn. And that is not good enough. So as I say, the universities have got to focus on their fundamental obligation to Australians, and that is teaching excellence, getting back to basics, face-to-face learning, and making sure that they are delivering high value degrees. And I think too many Australians are leaving university without a high value degree.
Andrew Clennell: The government has announced this policy in the context of reducing net migration from the current level this year, 528,000 to 260,000 – to explain to the viewers that’s coming into the country versus people leaving the country. That includes tourists, that includes everyone, especially includes international students. Now Peter Dutton has said he wants to cut net migration from that 528, or that 260, to 160,000. So would you introduce even lower caps on the number of foreign students? You’d have to, wouldn’t you, if elected?
Senator Henderson: Well, we will have more to say about net migration closer to the election, Andrew. But what I will say now is that we are determined to stop Labor’s big Australia policy. We want a better Australia, not a big Australia. And frankly, these numbers have absolutely run out-of-control. Every single forecast the government talks about is wildly off the mark. And you know, as I say, Australians have got to be able to access – and those who come to this country – have got to be able to access basic services. Getting to the doctor, finding a house to rent…
Andrew Clennell: Senator Henderson, sorry to interrupt, but your student cap would be under 270,000 wouldn’t it? It would have to be.
Senator Henderson: I’m not saying what it would be, Andrew at this stage, because frankly, there is so much about what the government is doing that we do not know. And of course, this bill allows them to make all these covert secret arrangements with every single university under the cover of darkness. So I’ve approached universities saying, `What is your cap?’ And they won’t tell me. Some will tell me. And of course, we’ve also had a situation where private higher education providers, who’ve spent three years getting their registration to open their doors, who do a really good job have been told `You’ve got no allocation next year’. It’s a complete mess.
Andrew Clennell: Okay. Can you confirm you would consider a lower cap? You said you’re going to say more about net migration, just yes or no?
Senator Henderson: I’m not going to give any, I’m not going to give any commitment about what cap we would consider. Our commitment is to reduce the numbers, the excessive numbers in our major, metropolitan cities. And that is where the big pressure points are, Andrew, and our commitment is also to look after the regions which have been decimated by this government.
Andrew Clennell: I wanted to ask about the schools agreement – the government is seeking to reach with the states. WA is due to sign up this week to an extra $16 billion, other states are unhappy with what they’re being offered. Would a Coalition government seek to offer more? Where would you stand?
Senator Henderson: Well, Andrew, all I can say is that this is another massive mess on Jason Clare’s watch. It is unprecedented that education ministers, Labor education ministers, come to Canberra and protest – with Ben Carroll, the Victorian education minister, even saying that the Liberals did a better job for public schools than this government is doing. Look, the bottom line is the government misled Australians when they said, Look, we are going to deliver full and fair funding to public schools because the Commonwealth is actually currently meeting its Gonksi obligations. So we will wait and see what the government is going to do. But frankly, they are involved in a school funding war when Jason Clare should be delivering the national reforms that we need to lift student standards. I mean, one in three children is failing NAPLAN. Standards are declining. We do need explicit instruction. We do need evidence- based teaching methods in every Australian classroom. And on that particular mission, Jason Clare has really failed, because there is no national reform agreement.
Andrew Clennell: Almost out of time, Sarah Henderson, thanks for your time. Let me ask you briefly about two other issues – the census, the flip by the PM on the question around sexual orientation. Well, how do you think he’s handled this?
Senator Henderson: Oh, look, it’s an absolute shambles. Andrew, one minute, we have Jim Chalmers and Richard Marles saying how divisive this is, and then we have the Prime Minister walking this back. Look, the bottom line is, we will work with the government on any questions in the census, but it just goes to show that the government is all at sea, even on its own election commitments.
Andrew Clennell: Tanya Plibersek decision on the Blayney gold mine… what’s your reaction to that? What do you think about motivations? And do you have confidence the opposition can overturn this with a disallowance motion in the Senate?
Senator Henderson: Look, I very much hope so, because this decision must be overturned. This gold mine must proceed. And I heard what Amanda Rishworth just said to you, saying that Minister Plibersek has not rejected the gold mine. Well, that’s rubbish, because in rejecting the tailings dam, she has rejected the gold mine. And the gold mine company has said, `Look, it will take at least another five or perhaps 10 years to find another location’. They’ve already spent five years doing this, they’ve met every hurdle. But this is all about Tanya Plibersek looking after inner city Green voters and not looking after regional Australia, and that is, frankly, an absolute disgrace.
Andrew Clennell: Sarah Henderson, thanks so much for your time.
Senator Henderson: Thank you so much. Andrew.