Topics: ANU called to Estimates, Coalition proposal to cancel visas of international student protesters, Direction 99.
Ross Solly: So, for just the second time in history, the Australian National University will be forced to appear before a Senate estimates next week to address what the Coalition is saying are concerns about the university’s response to antisemitism. Senator Sarah Henderson is the Coalition spokesperson on education and joins us on the program. Senator Henderson, good to have you on the on the ABC Canberra Drive Show.
Senator Henderson: It’s great to join you and can I just put my vote in and say, Breakfast at Sweethearts?
Ross Solly: Well, can I just say that it’s actually getting a lot of support, it’s a beautiful song. Will it get up though? I don’t know Sarah. There’s a lot of votes for Flame Trees.
Senator Henderson: And maybe Cheap Wine, as a second.
Ross Solly: Cheap Wine is a very good fallback position, not even just as a song, by the way. Sarah Henderson why do you need to drag the ANU before a Senate inquiry?
Senator Henderson: Well, we are delighted the ANU is appearing before the education committee next week. There has been an alarming rise of antisemitism at Australian universities and that’s why we are calling on the Prime Minister to back a judicial inquiry into antisemitism. This is causing profound concerns not just for Jewish students, but for many, many students on campuses. We’ve seen terrible incidents of antisemitism, including one of one of the ones that has disturbed me the most, apart from the blatant chanting of terrorist slogans and the like, is the invasion into classrooms where students who don’t support the activist cause are being photographed and identified akin to the 1930s.
Ross Solly: So, this didn’t happen at the ANU, no?
Senator Henderson: Absolutely not, no. That happened at the University of Melbourne.
Ross Solly: Am I right in saying that the reason, I think, the ANU is possibly the only university you can haul in, ahead of a Senate committee, is that right?
Senator Henderson: That’s absolutely right. Because it’s established as a corporate Commonwealth agency. We do have the power to call in the ANU. I would love all of the other university vice chancellors to come along as well, but we don’t have the same power. And that’s one of the reasons why we want the judicial inquiry.
Ross Solly: So, in a way are you sort of making the ANU a scapegoat for all the other universities – they are going to carry the can for all the universities in Australia, is that right?
Senator Henderson: No, not at all. And in fact, I’ve been far more critical as have many people about the University of Melbourne and the University of Sydney. And we’ve now seen a shocking agreement entered into between the University of Sydney and protesters. And so, in fact, I’ve indicated that if the vice chancellor of Sydney University can’t do his job, he should resign and other Jewish organisations have called for his resignation as well.
Ross Solly: So why should the ANU be called in to answer for their actions?
Senator Henderson: Because I think the ANU, obviously, is one of the preeminent universities in the country. We have the jurisdiction to call them and it will enable senators to shine a light on the policies and the operations of the ANU. And I think also the ANU has a very positive story to tell. Like a number of other universities, it has encountered a range of difficulties in forcing codes of conduct. I think many universities were very slow out of the box, but this also is a way that the university can bring confidence to the way that it is ministering its operations and combating this issue so that everyone has the confidence that they could be safe on the university campus.
Ross Solly: The ANU has told us this week that they have at least four inquiries underway at the moment, four disciplinary hearings going on as you’re aware, they’ve asked the protestors there to move on. Many would say that the ANU maybe has really taken this quite seriously and in fact, they’ve been criticized for trying to shut down free speech.
Senator Henderson: Well, look obviously free speech, academic freedom and the right to protest are fundamental rights in our country. And of course, we have a long history of universities supporting free speech and protests. So, there’s no issue with that. But the issue is when students overstep the line when free speech becomes blatant intimidation, harassment, discrimination, and there are very strong policies against that sort of behaviour at every university campus. So, while there are strong policies, we’ve seen mixed responses in terms of how the universities have enforced their code of conduct and the like, we want to make sure that whenever there is a shocking incident, or a serious incident on the university campus that every student feels safe, and there is the disciplinary action taken to combat that sort of conduct. I really think this is an important opportunity for the ANU to explain what it’s doing to combat antisemitism. And I’d certainly welcome any other submissions from any other university Vice Chancellors as well.
Ross Solly: They’re under no obligation to provide that?
Senator Henderson: No, they’re not, we don’t have that jurisdiction.
Ross Solly: Senator Henderson, you were on our radio station yesterday morning chatting with Adam Shirley, on the breakfast show about the plan or the Coalition plan that you would cancel the student visas of any students who were taking part in antisemitic protests or anything like that that happened on their campus. Now, during that interview, Adam asked you would the same apply for people who are displaying Islamophobia and I think that I don’t want to put words in your mouth but you suggested that this wasn’t an issue. That’s caused a bit of a brouhaha and in fact, this morning Adam had a guest on Nazmul Hussain, who is a multicultural community champion here in the ACT who was saying Islamophobia is definitely a real issue. It’s a real thing that that Islamists have to deal with every day. Why isn’t your policy covering both? Why just focus on antisemitic behaviour?
Senator Henderson: So, the Coalition is responding to an alarming increase in antisemitism at university campuses. And when I was asked about this yesterday on radio, I was concerned that as the government has been doing, there should be no false equivalence between antisemitism and Islamophobia. I’m not saying there are not incidents of racism, including against Muslims in the community and including on university campuses. But we have seen a shocking increase in antisemitism and that’s why the Coalition has announced this very important policy, that we will cancel these visas of international students involved in antisemitic conduct.
Ross Solly: So why not extend it, Senator Henderson? It’s no harm is it to extend it to all forms of racism? Why just single out one form? I mean, racism in all forms is abhorrent. So why not just make it one policy, anybody on any campus who engages in any racist behaviour should have their visa cancelled? I think you’d get broad support for that.
Senator Henderson: Racism is abhorrent. And there is a broad power in the Migration Act to cancel someone’s visa on a range of different conduct. So, if a visa holder shows contempt or disregard for the law or human rights or is involved in terrorist activities, or political extremism, or vilifying a segment of the Australian community or even inciting discord. So that general power is already there. And as I also indicated in the radio interview I did yesterday morning, if there was an alarming increase in other forms, of discrimination or racism, then we would adjust our position accordingly. We’ve made our announcement, the UK also announced this policy because of what’s happening currently. And we’re not ruling anything out in the future, but we are responding to the current circumstances at Australian universities, and I do have to say I really reject any argument that there is some sort of equivalence between antisemitism and any other form of racism, including Islamophobia, at the moment on Australian university campuses, because that is simply not the case.
Ross Solly: Based on what? What are you basing that on?
Senator Henderson: Basing that on a whole range of evidence that has been collected, including by the Australian Council of Jewry, and including by a range of huge numbers of reporting of incidents on university campuses.
Ross Solly: Well, okay. But if you were to be provided with evidence that in fact Islamophobia was an issue, and we certainly heard from our guest on Breakfast this morning that is was an issue for students on the campus, Senator Henderson are you saying that you would look at including that in your laws, that you would cancel visas, not just for people, engaging in antisemitic behaviour, but Islamophobia as well?
Senator Henderson: Look, I just want to make a very strong point, that we should not be trying to draw a false equivalence between antisemitism…
Ross Solly: I think it should be racism generally I don’t know why I don’t know why you would single one out over the other. I think racism generally it’s not a competition. It’s not a competition to say `Who’s worse, who’s behaving more poorly here? Isn’t racism generally. You said it, Sarah Henderson. That’s right?
Senator Henderson: I’ve already addressed your, your question on that. And I’ve already made it very clear that the Migration Act has very strong powers in relation to cancelling someone’s visa on the character, on the basis of the character or the conduct of the visa holder. But what we are doing and that’s why I’m saying, `Please don’t draw any sort of false equivalence between antisemitism and other forms of racism’. We are responding to what’s currently happening on university campuses. It is absolutely abhorrent. It is horrific. And I’ve already addressed your question.
Ross Solly: I agree with you…
Senator Henderson: … just to finish my point – and made it very clear that if we saw an alarming spike in any other sort of racism, so if we had horrific protests, where there were terrorist slogans being shouted at Muslim people, or Aboriginal or any other sort of minority – we would respond accordingly with the same types of policies. But what I’m saying is we are responding to the here and now. And I’ve already made it clear that if circumstances were to change, then we would consider that accordingly.
Ross Solly: I’ve gotta’ say, Senator Henderson, I agree with you. Antisemitism is outrageous. It is disgraceful and those that are engaging in it should be punished. I think not many people would sit here and support those, because you’re right, I think there has been a terrible increase in that sort of behaviour in the past few months. But, I guess… I’m sorry did you want to say something?
Senator Henderson: I mean, I went to Mount Scopus Memorial College on Monday, and they had a horrific antisemitic slogan painted on their front fence. I mean, the children there were really quite traumatised. A lot of Year 12 students were saying, `Do I even want to go to university? Because I’m so in fear of walking around showing the symbols of my faith, showing my heritage and my culture and religion’. And no matter your religion, no matter your faith or your heritage, every single young Australians shouldn’t feel safe on a university campus.
Ross Solly: One hundred per cent. And I doubt that any of my listeners would disagree with you on that. Senator Henderson, all I’m saying and I think we need to leave it there because we’re probably not going to… but all I’m saying is I don’t understand why you just don’t have a blanket coverage here for all racism. I don’t understand why – I know you’re saying it’s a bigger issue right now, but I just think it should cover it all racism, let’s just call everybody in who wants to engage in this sort of behaviour read them the riot act, rip their visas out from underneath them and send them off…
Senator Henderson: As I say, unlike the government, and the government’s made no, made no suggestion that it would do anything in relation to any international student visa on any character basis. I made it very clear that if we were to see this sort of conduct against any other minority by someone who held a visa in this country, we would consider taking the same action but at the moment, I do not want to draw a false equivalence between antisemitism and any other form of racism. We are responding to a crisis of antisemitism at university campuses and I really regret the fact that through the failure of leadership from the Albanese government, it has not endorsed our policy.
Ross Solly: Just before I left you go, Senator Henderson. I know the Senate’s not sitting at the moment, but I’m sure you were glued to Question Time today, as was I. Very interesting today that the federal government has announced that it is walking back Ministerial Direction 99, which was a direction issued by the immigration minister which basically is now being blamed for allowing a lot of people out onto the streets to have their visas reinstated after they were quite obviously people not of good character. Do you applaud the government for walking this back now and revisiting this?
Senator Henderson: Well, I wasn’t glued to Question Time. We’ve got a very big job in the Senate with Estimates this week and next week, but I have to say the government’s failures on community safety are completely unacceptable. Direction 99 has meant that many visa cancellations have been overturned. We’ve seen some horrific cases where shocking examples of criminals walking around on the streets as a result of the government’s failure. The Prime Minister, yes, has now made this announcement. He has promised to amend it but frankly it’s too late for many people who have been victims of crime as a result of this direction.
Ross Solly: Mind you if you are watching question time, and we already did also reel off a long list of people who were allowed visas or had their visas reinstated when Peter Dutton was minister. So, I don’t know Sarah Henderson that it’s a new problem. I think it’s probably been around for a few governments.
Senator Henderson: Well, can I make a very important point that when Peter Dutton was the minister for home affairs, he cancelled more than 6300 visas of dangerous non-citizen criminals. And we have seen a dramatic weakening of the stand, by this government and that has put community safety at risk and that is just not good enough.
Ross Solly: The Albanese government deported 4200 people last year?
Senator Henderson: But look who they’ve left on the streets. I mean, it is appalling. I mean, last year, we had 153 criminals released into the community, including child sex offenders.
Ross Solly: Again, this is not a new thing. It happened when Peter Dutton was there as well. I think it’s an issue, that at least now, there is a conversation happening. Senator Henderson we might see some change but I do appreciate your time this afternoon. Thanks for chatting.
Senator Henderson: Thanks so much Ross, great to talk to you.