Topics: Bunnings’ face recognition technology; international student cap bill.
Ross Solly: Sarah Henderson is the opposition’s spokesperson for education, and for many, many years, of course, was on ABC TV, so has a very recognisable face and I wonder what Sarah Henderson thinks about walking into Bunnings and having her mug filmed and used for facial recognition. Good morning to you, Sarah Henderson.
Senator Henderson: A very good morning to you, Ross. It was wonderful to be part of the ABC crew for so many years but of course, now very proudly part of the Coalition fighting the good fight.
Ross Solly: Yes, well, and on may the fight go. What do you think about Bunnings and we had a member of the Union on earlier on, saying, `Look, this is basically the only thing that a lot of businesses can do to protect their staff, they need to be able to film people, and then if known offenders are coming in, there can be some sort of a warning and that people could maybe be denied entry’. Where do you sit on this? Do you have a view on this, Sarah Henderson?
Senator Henderson: Well, of course, as we know, Ross, Bunnings has been found to have breached privacy laws by using facial recognition technology on its customers, that was the finding of the Privacy Commissioner. So of course, every company must follow the law, but I do appreciate and understand the issues that Bunnings has raised, the issues of violence and other offenses being committed in its stores. I think the most important thing, though, at this point in time, is that every company must follow the law, and if there are issues with the ability of businesses to appropriately protect their staff, then you know that needs to be taken up properly, not obviously running some sort of CCTV operation which is not in compliance with the law.
Ross Solly: The decision this week by your party not to support the government’s cap on international students took a lot of people by surprise, given some of the public announcements that Peter Dutton had made that I think you had made as well, about how important it was to try and keep these numbers under control. Can you explain to people, today, who maybe think that this is just some sort of a political game, why they’re wrong?
Senator Henderson: Well this is not a political game. We’ve made it very clear that we will cap foreign students coming to Australia. They have more than doubled under Labor from something like 474,000 through to more than 800,000 international students in this country, and that’s putting enormous pressure on housing, on other services, and of course, it reflects the fact that migration is out of control.
Ross Solly: Which is why they’re introducing these caps.
Senator Henderson: Well, the problem with the caps is they don’t go far enough, Ross, and in fact, when you look at the number of student visas issued, there were 577,000 in 2022-23 that then dropped to 376,000. Now the government saying its proposed cap of 270,000 brings the numbers down, but it in fact, doesn’t, because there’s tens of thousands of exempt students who will still come into the country if this cap was approved.
Ross Solly: But am I right? Am I right? Sorry, Sarah Henderson, can I just clarify something though. Am I right in saying, though, that the legislation would allow the government of the day, the minister of the day, and if you win the next election, that would be you to alter the numbers. You could change the numbers if you, if you chose to do so?
Senator Henderson: Well, we’re not going to endorse this scheme by Labor because this scheme does not bring numbers down, and that’s the bottom line. And in fact, what we’ve also seen is that this bakes in a benefit for the Group of Eight the elite universities in this country, and of course, other universities are being punished. So just to give a bit more detail about that, under Labor’s proposed cap, foreign students at the Group of Eight universities would go up by 11 per cent while foreign students coming to regional universities would decline by 16 per cent since 2019 and they’re the pre-pandemic figures. So, there’s a lot of smoke and mirrors about Labor’s policy and I will make this very important point, some universities, and I point particularly to the University of Sydney, where around half of all students are foreign students, made $1.4 billion in 2023 from foreign students. They are using foreign students as rivers of gold and we think that the government has got the balance all wrong. And of course, also we’re seeing the minister kneecapping private education providers, and that’s also a very big issue.
Ross Solly: Okay but if I go back to the point that the legislation would enable you, if you were to win the next election, it would enable you to alter the numbers. The legislation would be there. It would have gone through. You could come in, Sarah Henderson, and you could say, right, we don’t think it goes far enough. We’re going to double or halve the number of it. It would’ve been there in black and white. It was a simple measure that’s put in place with both parties, both major parties, saying they both want the same goal and that is to reduce immigration. This is something you could have supported.
Senator Henderson: Absolutely, we will go harder. We will lower the number of foreign students coming to this country. As I’ve just explained, the number of foreign students is actually going up under Labor based on their own numbers, not down. But this is a very bad bill. This is a very flawed bill, as I say, which bakes in a benefit to the most prestigious universities, punishes the regions, punishes other mid-tier universities, as well as many private providers. Let me just give you an example, Ross – we found out during four Senate inquiry hearings that the government was going to kneecap the flight training industry in this country, and of course, that’s been run by private education colleges, and that would have put many international airline agreements at jeopardy. This was a grossly incompetent and discriminatory scheme which kneecapped many education providers, looked after the big end of town and punished everyone else, and we were just not going to cop this, that we were not going to allow such a poorly constructed piece of legislation to go through the parliament, causing more mess and more chaos and compounding the absolute crisis that we have seen with immigration in this country. And at the end of the day, as I say, this was driving numbers up. And we want all Australians to access a house. We want Australians to access a doctor and we’ve seen this completely go off the cliff under Labor.
Ross Solly: What about, and there are many economists out there, I think Saul Eslake is one, there are others who are saying, `Look, this is all well and good, but if you start cutting down on international students, there will be a flow on effect. There will be a lot of industries that will struggle for staff. We’re already seeing it. This is going to be a knock-on effect’. We’re seeing universities – I know you mentioned the University of Sydney, – the ANU is in a similar situation. They do rely a lot on international students. We’re now seeing staff lose their jobs. We’re seeing courses being cut, Sarah Henderson, is that a price we’re prepared to pay?
Senator Henderson:: Can I just pick you up on that. Ross, the ANU is quite different. They don’t have nearly the same level of international students, and unlike Sydney, they provide a lot more accommodation.
Ross Solly: That is true. But the ANU has also said, though, that the uncertainty over international students is causing them to make some pretty serious cuts.
Senator Henderson: Well, let me just tell you that uncertainty has been created by this government. The uncertainty has been created by a very bad piece of legislation, compounded by the fact that we have seen international students flooding this country without any regard to proper migration settings. Now, a number of universities have made the very strong point, Ross, every country has a responsibility to run its migration program in the national interest. The Albanese government has lost sight of the national interest. It has shown regard for some of the elite universities. So, when you look at this cap, the number allocated to universities goes back by 1 per cent but for other providers, so the private higher education providers, for instance, who do a very good job in this country educating both domestic and international students, their number has gone back by 28 per cent so this is covert. It’s discriminatory. It’s wrong, and as I say at the end of the day, it reflects the fact that this government has badly got the migration settings wrong. Migration is out of control under this government and we are not going to cop it on our watch.
Ross Solly: There are some text messages suggesting that, basically, you are spoiling for a fight at the next election campaign on immigration. Otherwise, why would you not support legislation that actually gives you the tools, the tools to reduce the number of students coming into Australia? Somebody else says `It’s hard to listen to Sarah Henderson pretend that the Liberal National Party cares about universities with the way they have treated universities through COVID’. Somebody else says `The Coalition clearly voted down the student cap legislation because they want it as an election issue. It’s totally transparent’. This text just says `It’s rich for Sarah Henderson to blame Labor for everything, her government were in power for nine years. Numbers have built up after COVID’. I’ll give you the final say on those texts, Sarah Henderson.
Senator Henderson: Well, as I say, since Labor was elected we have seen a more than doubling of foreign students. The government itself has admitted…
Ross Solly: But we but we lost a lot of students during COVID, though, didn’t we?
Senator Henderson: Yes we did, but let me just make this point: The government itself has admitted that this is out-of-control and this is placing enormous pressure on housing, particularly in Melbourne and Sydney. So, I just want to give you an example, it doesn’t affect Canberra as much, I understand that, but at the moment we’ve heard the evidence – 500,000 international students are being forced onto the private rental market. Now that, of course, is impacting many Australians’ ability to find affordable rental accommodation, but it’s really bad in Melbourne and Sydney. So, in inner Sydney, you know, obviously near the University of Sydney in Glebe, rents have gone up 17 per cent, Ross, in one year. Now in Clayton, the home of Monash University, rents have gone up a staggering 20 per cent in one year. So, this is not an issue that affects the people of Canberra as much. I totally understand that, but in Melbourne and Sydney, housing is at a crisis point and foreign students coming into this country in such large numbers are really hurting Australians’ ability to find an affordable place to live. Now, if the universities had exercised greater responsibility, and I particularly point to Sydney and perhaps to a lesser extent, Melbourne, where the numbers are at 46 per cent then maybe this issue would not be so profound, but it is absolutely a crisis, and this government has admitted it. This government has admitted that it’s lost control of migration. It’s admitted that housing is out of control in terms of access to housing, and so it’s now delivering this very blunt tool, which as we learnt, is going to kneecap many mid-tier and regional universities as well as private higher education providers, and the damage will be done. That’s why we cannot pass this legislation.
Ross Solly: Sarah Henderson we’ll have to leave it here. Thank you for your time this morning. It’s been great to talk to you.
Senator Henderson: Thank you so much, Ross.